A couple of reactions that are on the top of my mind.
I started my novel late in life -- my third life, actually. I thought of a lot of those things you have listed to help me along as I started my novel, but I decided to reach out to five people whose writing and candor I respected. They weren't friends, exactly, but we certainly knew each other and three lived in other states. I was actually stunned the all said yes and most read multiple revisions, three read them all. On each revision, I also added someone who knew nothing about the book. All had a deep interest in writing and reading. Their critiques were fantastically helpful. They did not pull punches. On either end of the spectrum.
My favorite reaction relates to one of the comments you got hear regarding depth of characters. This woman lives in a double-wide in Colorado and runs her own house-cleaning business and is an amazing raw writer. (I met her in the weekly online writers group I started and ran for four years.) After the second draft she wrote, "Gevalt. You are still writing like a fucking journalist, you know, outside looking in. Get inside them for fuck's sake." Exact quote.
Another is an art therapist from Michigan who got her doctorate in working with people with damaged brains. Two of my characters have damaged brains. After the first full draft she called me up on the phone and mocked being pissed off at me saying, in so many words, that I'd gotten the two characters spot on -- medically speaking -- and how did I do that on a wing and a prayer when she is still paying off her loans for four years of learning all about that. Having that kind of resource (unexpected, again, she was in my writing group and I did not know her background) was key in helping me shape and fix those characters.
So for me that was enough. I didn't have to go to classes or programs or retreats even though I wanted to and thought it would be a good idea. It wasn't necessary. I had a very diverse, very particular audience who also were willing to devote an incredible amount of time and energy to my project.
It is a community process. Despite what everyone says. Just find yourself some diverse acquaintances who might be willing to help you out.
Wow, thank you so much for sharing this. Your critique partner’s comment is so incredible. I feel like it applies to me perfectly (probably to a lot of people, honestly). And you’re right, having quality critique partners is key. It was a stroke of fate, I think, that you were able to meet such incredible writers without having to use the conduit of a workshop or course to find them. I’m having a harder time. I just haven’t been in the fiction writing world long enough to know people, in any capacity. To be honest I’m still trying to articulate what exactly my own reading taste is. I know beautiful writing when I read it. Otherwise I have no idea of what patterns or styles I like. So I don’t have any particular writers whose works I admire. Other than Patrick Rothfuss, and I doubt he’d be a beta reader. Anyway, thanks so much for stopping by here and writing your thoughts. Really looking forward to future discourse!
Noor, either you're going to learn a lot or you're going to overwhelm yourself -- speaking as one self-overwhelmer to another...
It sounds like you're on the right track regarding adding the depth of character. Not knowing what the scene is, maybe having them reflect on what's happening or reveal some internal conflict about it.
In regard to the scene you keep re-writing -- does my article on writing strong scenes help? Are you asking yourself what the main point of the scene is? What the character wants and what will happen if they don't get it? Would using other sensory details beyond sight help?
Perhaps you can go back to another book that has the depth of character like you're trying to add and see how they did it will help.
That's great you're going to be doing the San Fran WDW - I like Chuck. I'll be an attending agent at a few WDW this year both in person and on line. Just not San Fran... that would've been fun :)
Thanks so much for these encouraging comments Renee! Your scene writing articles do help. And the scene revision course has helped me ensure I include all the critical pieces--ground the reader in space, reveal the goal, set up obstacles to build tension, even more tension, and end with a resolution or a cliff hanger. I'm getting better at finding moments to include interiority and getting the narrator's voice (the ms is third person limited) to sound more like my character. It's slow work, but Im making progress.
I am trying to read more books with prose and structure that I admire so I can reverse engineer how the authors did it. Reading with that intention seems to be its own skill. But it is fruitful.
Glad WDW is a good one, wish you were coming by SF! If you're ever in town for a writer event (or any other reason) it would be awesome to connect IRL.
Hey Noor, I came from the opposite background (double major in English lit and psychology, and was immersed in fiction writing communities for more than a decade). So I had to learn to tone my prose down. I loved using metaphors to describe things, especially emotions and relationships. But many readers found them overwhelming, and I felt defensive. If George Eliot and Charlotte Bronte did it, then why couldn't I?
Yet as I grew older, I became more secure and less stubborn. So I gradually cut down and now my prose actually looks minimalist. I still use figurative language but a lot more sparingly. The good thing is that this makes the few metaphors I put in, more powerful and striking, because they stand out against my more matter of fact prose.
Anyway, it sounds like you're on the right track! Getting feedback, attending workshops, learning and applying your knowledge from blogs on the writing craft, etc. I followed Jami Gold's writing craft blog during that decade. I commented on almost all her posts, that Jami became a good friend and confidant. Our many discussions helped me understand and apply fiction writing craft theory. So now, a lot of things became second nature to me because I got so used to them. It's fantastic to have a great, supportive mentor! (It sounds like Renee Fountain is a supportive mentor to you here. :D)
Thanks for this thoughtful comment Sieran! And I'm definitely checking out Jami Gold's stuff! Sounds you've been on a really impactful journey in your fiction writing. I'm such a newbie at this it's hard not to feel so very behind all the time. I'm just taking it day by and day and trying to appreciate the fact that I get to spend my time working on getting better.
wow. you cover a lot of ground here.
A couple of reactions that are on the top of my mind.
I started my novel late in life -- my third life, actually. I thought of a lot of those things you have listed to help me along as I started my novel, but I decided to reach out to five people whose writing and candor I respected. They weren't friends, exactly, but we certainly knew each other and three lived in other states. I was actually stunned the all said yes and most read multiple revisions, three read them all. On each revision, I also added someone who knew nothing about the book. All had a deep interest in writing and reading. Their critiques were fantastically helpful. They did not pull punches. On either end of the spectrum.
My favorite reaction relates to one of the comments you got hear regarding depth of characters. This woman lives in a double-wide in Colorado and runs her own house-cleaning business and is an amazing raw writer. (I met her in the weekly online writers group I started and ran for four years.) After the second draft she wrote, "Gevalt. You are still writing like a fucking journalist, you know, outside looking in. Get inside them for fuck's sake." Exact quote.
Another is an art therapist from Michigan who got her doctorate in working with people with damaged brains. Two of my characters have damaged brains. After the first full draft she called me up on the phone and mocked being pissed off at me saying, in so many words, that I'd gotten the two characters spot on -- medically speaking -- and how did I do that on a wing and a prayer when she is still paying off her loans for four years of learning all about that. Having that kind of resource (unexpected, again, she was in my writing group and I did not know her background) was key in helping me shape and fix those characters.
So for me that was enough. I didn't have to go to classes or programs or retreats even though I wanted to and thought it would be a good idea. It wasn't necessary. I had a very diverse, very particular audience who also were willing to devote an incredible amount of time and energy to my project.
It is a community process. Despite what everyone says. Just find yourself some diverse acquaintances who might be willing to help you out.
peace,
gg
Wow, thank you so much for sharing this. Your critique partner’s comment is so incredible. I feel like it applies to me perfectly (probably to a lot of people, honestly). And you’re right, having quality critique partners is key. It was a stroke of fate, I think, that you were able to meet such incredible writers without having to use the conduit of a workshop or course to find them. I’m having a harder time. I just haven’t been in the fiction writing world long enough to know people, in any capacity. To be honest I’m still trying to articulate what exactly my own reading taste is. I know beautiful writing when I read it. Otherwise I have no idea of what patterns or styles I like. So I don’t have any particular writers whose works I admire. Other than Patrick Rothfuss, and I doubt he’d be a beta reader. Anyway, thanks so much for stopping by here and writing your thoughts. Really looking forward to future discourse!
Noor, either you're going to learn a lot or you're going to overwhelm yourself -- speaking as one self-overwhelmer to another...
It sounds like you're on the right track regarding adding the depth of character. Not knowing what the scene is, maybe having them reflect on what's happening or reveal some internal conflict about it.
In regard to the scene you keep re-writing -- does my article on writing strong scenes help? Are you asking yourself what the main point of the scene is? What the character wants and what will happen if they don't get it? Would using other sensory details beyond sight help?
Perhaps you can go back to another book that has the depth of character like you're trying to add and see how they did it will help.
That's great you're going to be doing the San Fran WDW - I like Chuck. I'll be an attending agent at a few WDW this year both in person and on line. Just not San Fran... that would've been fun :)
I know this isn't easy, but I know you can do it.
Thanks so much for these encouraging comments Renee! Your scene writing articles do help. And the scene revision course has helped me ensure I include all the critical pieces--ground the reader in space, reveal the goal, set up obstacles to build tension, even more tension, and end with a resolution or a cliff hanger. I'm getting better at finding moments to include interiority and getting the narrator's voice (the ms is third person limited) to sound more like my character. It's slow work, but Im making progress.
I am trying to read more books with prose and structure that I admire so I can reverse engineer how the authors did it. Reading with that intention seems to be its own skill. But it is fruitful.
Glad WDW is a good one, wish you were coming by SF! If you're ever in town for a writer event (or any other reason) it would be awesome to connect IRL.
Sounds like a plan, Noor. I love San Fran. I used to go all the time when I lived in San Diego.
Hey Noor, I came from the opposite background (double major in English lit and psychology, and was immersed in fiction writing communities for more than a decade). So I had to learn to tone my prose down. I loved using metaphors to describe things, especially emotions and relationships. But many readers found them overwhelming, and I felt defensive. If George Eliot and Charlotte Bronte did it, then why couldn't I?
Yet as I grew older, I became more secure and less stubborn. So I gradually cut down and now my prose actually looks minimalist. I still use figurative language but a lot more sparingly. The good thing is that this makes the few metaphors I put in, more powerful and striking, because they stand out against my more matter of fact prose.
Anyway, it sounds like you're on the right track! Getting feedback, attending workshops, learning and applying your knowledge from blogs on the writing craft, etc. I followed Jami Gold's writing craft blog during that decade. I commented on almost all her posts, that Jami became a good friend and confidant. Our many discussions helped me understand and apply fiction writing craft theory. So now, a lot of things became second nature to me because I got so used to them. It's fantastic to have a great, supportive mentor! (It sounds like Renee Fountain is a supportive mentor to you here. :D)
Thanks for this thoughtful comment Sieran! And I'm definitely checking out Jami Gold's stuff! Sounds you've been on a really impactful journey in your fiction writing. I'm such a newbie at this it's hard not to feel so very behind all the time. I'm just taking it day by and day and trying to appreciate the fact that I get to spend my time working on getting better.